[!CrackMonkey!] [Bram@moolenaar.net: Microsoft funds OpenSource initiative]

Mister Bad mr.bad at pigdog.org
Mon Nov 25 16:46:23 PST 2002

>>>>> "GK" == Greg KH <greg at kroah.com> writes:

    Me> Strangely, tons and tons of free software developers are able
    Me> to spend plenty of time coding, and little time with merges and
    Me> conflict resolution, using Free source code control tools. Many
    Me> have the same level of versioning and organizational complexity
    Me> as the Linux kernel.

    GK> Bully for them.  Have you ever done kernel development with
    GK> cvs?  I didn't think so...

Has it ever been possible to do Linux kernel development with CVS? I
didn't think so. My understanding is that BitKeeper is the first and
only version control system used for the kernel. Is that incorrect?

I don't have a lot of information on other systems, but here's a
comparison with other Free Unixes:

           NetBSD -- has anonymous CVS access and a CVS Web interface
                     (http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/) Strong
                     suggestion that CVS is used.

          FreeBSD -- http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#cvs . To
                     quote, "CVS  (the Concurrent Version System) is
                     the tool we use for keeping our sources under

          OpenBSD -- http://www.openbsd.org/why-cvs.html . Also uses
                     CVS, for all parts of the OS.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like the full *BSD trees are at least as
complex as the Linux kernel by itself.

In addition, here are a number of other complex Free Software systems:

              GNU -- CVS, using a modified SourceForge system called

           Apache -- http://www.apache.org/foundation/cvs.html . Use
                     CVS for all projects.

           Python -- Uses SourceForge (http://sourceforge.net/projects/python/),
                     including CVS.

Here's one more big project that uses a proprietary VCS:

             Perl -- http://dev.perl.org/perl5/docs/perlhack.html#keeping_in_sync 
                     Use Perforce (boo!) and patches submitted by

Here's a couple I couldn't figure out:

         Sendmail -- Unknown. They accept patches by email.

             Bind -- Unknown.

I think my main point here is that it's possible to manage huge
complex projects with CVS.

    Me> It's been a hallowed tradition in the Free Software world to
    Me> work with slightly or grossly less convenient tools [...]

    GK> Ogg see patch.  Ogg see diff.  Ogg see tarball.  Ogg like, he
    GK> feel manly using these primitive tools.  Ogg happy to spend
    GK> time merging by hand, makes him feel good.

Jeez, that's just ridiculous. There are plenty of tools in between a
proprietary SCM system and patch+diff+tarball.

    Me> If millions of people hadn't been willing to work with
    Me> inconvenient and unfamiliar tools, Linux would be in the same
    Me> scrapheap as Oberon or Inferno.

    GK> I've spent _years_ using these tools, don't tell me I don't
    GK> know how they work, or why people use them.

Uh... and? You missed my point.

    Me> Saying that one won't work with a given tool until it has
    Me> feature X or syntax Y is the Chump Way.

    GK> Ok, don't call me a chump, as I'm not saying that.

Well, there are other reasons you're a chump.

    GK> Since when did I say that _me_ using bk will effect _you_ in
    GK> any way?

I think you mean "affect." And the reasons it affects me and other Free
Software users are:

         1) Linux is a high-profile development effort, and
         2) It's become a well-publicized issue.

    GK> Ohh, call me, "unpure" for not using "blessed with the holy
    GK> RMS free software pee" tools to do what I like to do, on my
    GK> own time, in my quest to write free software.

Hey, you know, I use non-free software too (I get barked at by vrms
every month for it). But developing the Linux kernel and playing
Zangband have far different levels of high-profileness.

~Mr. Bad

P.S. Mmm... Zangband. Think I'll go throw away some freedom right now.

P.P.S. Zombie Mindcrafters ROXXOR!

Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org> | Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ 
 "A mandrill's behavior is mysterious." -- Mask of the Mandrill

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